QA draft

From Free Man Creator

Question on "return to Goethe"

The question

the activity needed to bridge the mineral/modern science begun in the 15th century with Spiritual Science//Michael//Consciousness Soul through the 7th age. 

I found one module on your site that is very helpful, but I wonder if I'm missing somewhere the chronology and details elaborating the starting point from Goethe as key example for our individual development now to this greater timeline subject. 

Years ago, our group studied all that we could find in the material from Steiner on Goethe, and there was a nugget that stated (no reference, just completely written in stone in my mind) that Steiner said

"unless we return to Goethe and find his starting point and proceed from that starting point, all of our efforts are in vain."

We have circled back to this 'starting with Goethe's starting point' question from time to time and it seems that your reference to 'the future development' of man in the present requiring a marriage of spiritual science/consciousness • consciousness soul development To mineral//modern science.

I wonder if I have missed modules on your site that open this question?

Answer

This question asks about Goethe as an essential starting point in context of two streams and worldviews, the materialistic mineral science and the spiritual science. Implicitly (and most interestingly) it also asks about the role of a life as Goethe's in a broader context human development.

I will give a short direct answer to start with, and afterwards provide angles to look at this matter for one's personal study and deepening.

The direct answer:

Rudolf Steiner positions Goethe as a figure representative of an impulse that is pivotal for humanity to connect to and engage with. He is a representative of several things ... of Goethean science as epistemology, but also he brought the theory of metamorphosis of plants, and colours, the Earth as a living being, etc . These are all about knowing life, the element of the etheric and formative forces, so (referring to the four elements) beyond the element 'earth' but also about the element 'water' .. it also relates to the faculty of imaginative cognition. Furthermore, he is a representative of the wave of german idealism (philosophy) and was also great poet and author (art). So we see the combination of philosophy, science and art .. with a new impulse that brings all this out in the open as cultural renewal.

Deepening the aspects of that statement:

First: about 'in the open' .. the current cultural age and the start in the 15th century saw a bifurcation of two streams: an overt of mineral science most well known, and a covert of rosecrucianism which had to live 'underground' in secret societies, use the veiled language of alchemy, etc. One should not forget about the inquisition, the index of the roman-catholic church, people being burned at the stake (see: Worldview wars#Middle ages). With Goethe this changed as he brought a counterweight to mineral science with an alternative epistemological and philosophical approach as foundational for spiritual science. There is a lecture where RS literally juxtaposes these two paths and describes this picture.

Secondly, to 'see' this more broadly .. Rudolf Steiner often sketches the polarity, opposition and radical bifurcation between the scientific approach represented by Bacon (1561-1626) and the one by Goethe (1749-1832), which in a way similarly maps to the polarity between Kant (1724-1804) and Hegel (1770-1831). To coin it rather black/white with shortcuts. Bacon 'torture nature and see how it reacts to experiments', Goethe 'observe phenomena of nature using the human soul, and see it living'. Hegel 'include the human as part of the whole' vs Kant. Steiner goes into this point quite often, that mineral science is deadening and lacks the moral dimension, whereas moral ideals are essential for the future humanity. This shows it is not just about science but about the whole worldview.

As always there are many more angles to this:

  • For the consciousness age, what is essential is to have the inside-out soul Parsifal attitude (Schema FMC00.380) fertilized by the spiritual, for which I usually refer to the metaphor of the semipermeable membrane - see notes to Schema FMC00.431. Man should ask questions and use the full human soul faculties, and not just intellectual thinking with the bandwidth filter of current senses. As we know this is an essential step for fructification by the Christ Impulse (see Schema FMC00.468 .. also Schema FMC00.438)
  • This impulse fits into a stream where other Individualities could/should/might have contributed (re Plato-Schroer, Kaspar Hauser with Bismarck after the preparatory german idealism), and as not all of them did .. this is also what Steiner picked up and continued .. establishing a renewal of this impulse (along with others, not just generations of anthroposophists, eg see also descriptions about H. Grimm in this context).

.

Steiner used Goethe as a symbol for all the above: he represents the epistemological approach of Goethean science, the union of philosophy-science-art with moral ideals and a science that includes the living. These are key if humanity wants to go beyond the mineral science of element 'earth' (and the grave consequences for the human soul of that worldview) to the element of life in nature ('water' or the etheric). It is a matter of escaping the materialistic worldview that is a dead-end street that will have catastrophic consequences for humanity, and offering an alternative. So that is what Rudolf Steiner is pointing to with this simple statement of 'go back and start with Goethe', because we have to let go of much that is engrained by the dominant established cultural-scientific worldview, today even much more than a century ago.

To conclude, if to choose one picture to illustrate the above as part of 'the bigger picture', I would propose Schema FMC00.054A

Timelines

The study of the below complements the earlier answer. Timeline views are useful for getting a feeling for the various perspectives by jolting together timeline that visualize these different angles.


********************


draft notes


Steiner’s message throughout GA 6 remains: our efforts are futile unless we begin from Goethe’s own mode of living perception.

GA 1    Introductions to Goethe’s Science Writings    “Making Goethe…our starting‑point…”

rudolfsteinerelib.org+3en.anthro.wiki+3dasgoetheanum.com+3

rsarchive.org

GA 2    The Science of Knowing, Ch. I    Returns to Goethe’s method of creative knowing

GA 6    Goethe’s World View    Emphasizes method over philosophy

GA 67    Goethe as Father of Spiritual Research    Goethe’s inner coherence, “never thinking about thinking”

GA 258    Anthroposophic Movement    Reaffirms Goethe’s epistemology as spiritual‑scientific groundwork

. GA 2 – The Science of Knowing, Chapter I ("The Point of Departure")

Echoing his earlier point, Steiner argues that later philosophers misstep by comparing Goethe’s findings to external systems, rather than adopting Goethe’s method from the outset. That “starting-point” is the human experience unfolding in creative knowing .

3. GA 67 – Goethe as the Father of Spiritual Research, Berlin, Feb 21, 1918

Steiner highlights Goethe's method: the refusal to “think about thinking,” and the inner coherence of Goethe’s approach. He insists we must deeply understand Goethe’s way of observing nature, not appropriate him for preconceived spiritual views

rsarchive.org

.

4. GA 258 – Anthroposophic Movement, June 17, 1923

Here Steiner again connects modern anthroposophy to Goethe, and especially his epistemological approach (as in Goethe the Scientist, A Theory of Knowledge) as foundational for spiritual science

rsarchive.org+11rsarchive.org+11rsarchive.org+11

.

5. GA 6 – Goethe’s World View

Throughout this volume (first published 1928), Steiner demonstrates that Goethe’s phenomenological, archetypal methods—rather than abstract philosophical systems—must be taken as the core from which to grow a living science .

Your recalled phrase aligns clearly with Steiner’s recurring insistence across multiple GAs: unless we begin with Goethe’s Goethean, phenomena-based methodology—grounded in direct, living perception—all spiritual or scientific efforts risk being futile. The quotes above provide documented proof across GA 1, GA 2, GA 6, GA 67, and GA 258, with exact phrasing and contexts you can verify.

Question on Man's physical body and Genesis

How should we understand the description of Man's physical body when we compare with what is said in the lectures on Genesis, where we learn that Man did not get any physicality (fire-air) before the 6th day, which can be approximately mapped to the separation of the moon ?

Should we think that Man was a psychic entity but nonetheless connected to the material processes of the Earth — the key concept being that of "ensoulment" or "absence of ensoulment" ?

What to think about the 3rd day, when most human beings were evolving on other planets : were they still "breathing" with the Earth ?


First of all thank you for reaching out with this question, this is really a very nice question. It is important and I find certain questions beautiful, so as with every question, my intention is to use this as an opportunity to further the materials on the FMC wiki site.

To this purpose I have already added some elements from my refererence files, such as:


Now to your question: You ask several questions, and so I'd like to refine with you .. starting with: what do you refer to when you write 'Man', and 'ensoulment'?

Man or the human being is quite different, as a term to use, before and after the middle of the Lemurian epoch, as there were two developmental streams: the 'lower' (with the 'construction' of the lower bodies from the four elements on Earth), and the 'higher' (the spiritual, part of group souls astrally, with Man's higher triad). And not only the fusion process in the middle of the Lemurian epoch is complex, but also how the different elements developed separately. Rudolf Steiner describes the different parts, but does not bring these together very explicitly. Though he does of course describe it in general, he does expect us to bring the pieces of the puzzle together imaginately ourselves.

Am I right in reading your question as being about this cohesion of how all the pieces fit together?

Hence, this is why I asked what you mean exactly with ensoulment, because it related to this fusion in the astral. There are various references on the site to this, see eg Lemurian epoch#1906-11-26-GA283.

However given the complexity of the matter, my proposal is we explore this further interactively to allow us to home in to the essence of your question.

Otherwise the danger is we have too broad a topic, with many angles of perspective to it (and I'm going down the wrong track in my response) eg:

  • the evolving 'make up' of the lower Man, and its consciousness (re eg 1908-05-25-GA103 and FMC00.574, etc).
  • the evolution of the higher Man, starting with the scaffolds of Man's higher triad (so starting with Schema FMC00.482, but then also on the Earth stage Schema FMC00.573, etc)
  • the linkeage, like the group souls of humanity (starting with the Old Moon picture Schema FMC00.181, but then relating that to the granular group souls on Earth (Jehovah) .. there are some references linked into the tentative description [[Development of the I#[1] - Narrative to the Development of the Human I]])
  • then specifically also the Book of Genesis itself, as you refer to that in your message (for this I uploaded the Hagemann extract above as a starter or basis)

Thus hereby acknowledging and welcoming the question, and happy to go into it.

Question on ahrimanic double

Will we "bequeath" our physical body to our ahrimanic double when we ascend (during the 7th Post-Atlantean Cultural Age)?

Are the "Jupiter Humans" the same beings as our ahrimanic double?


salamanders

https://anthroposophy.eu/I-less_human_beings#1908-05-16-GA102


double

https://anthroposophy.eu/The_double#Daskalos


The doppelgangers are part of us, we have to integrate them back into our system. They are "strangulations" in the astral and sometimes perhaps also the etheric, but they are part of us. I doubt that they can become independent. (But I'm happy to be convinced otherwise.)


For this particular question .. there is the question if the double is part of the higher triad or the lower bodies, it should be the higher of course, so it's a question about individuation; does the connection between the spiritualized human being of the future and the lower physical bodies remain, like it was on Old Moon (Schema FMC00.182 group souls of humanity connected to the lower physical entities, but now individualized) .. Steiner mentions 'hovering over', being able to enter and go out, as initiates can already do today ..


If that is so .. then the question this person is asking is really the distinction between the ahrimanic influences in Man today, and those entities who will rise to human stage on Future Jupiter - see Schema FMC00.343A.


Question on money

I have been looking for suggestion from Steiner about economic actions and ideas.

I know Steiner gave rise to associative economics and this has been taken up by Christopher Houghton Budd whose books I have read (not all of them), I also am familiar with Gaudenz Assenza who has written an excellent book about associative economics.

What is money . .from the anthroposophical point of view ... but the resources must stay faithful to what Steiner indicates/ explains.

Aspects

  • whereas initially money was a sort of equivalent for concrete goods or articles or services produced .. money has since become an abstraction, emancipated from the real reality of life. It can therefore be applied to every sort of thing, so abstractified money extends over every conceivable thing, even things that do not matter to needs or well being of human beings (1920-09-15-GA335)
1920-09-15-GA335

How has it come about, that such a thing is possible? It has come about through the emancipation of the money-market from the goods-market. This emancipation dates from about the years 1810 to 1815. It was at this period first, that the earlier, purely economic conditions controlling public life, gave place to a control of public life by the money-market. It was the time when the bank-system first really became the dominant factor in economic life. And for economic situations to be created by transactions solely in the money-market, on the grand scale that was possible by 1907, was something which only came about through money having become what I might call an ‘actual abstraction,’ that spreads through our whole economic life and to all other life as well.

We go back in thought to the time, when a man was himself involved with the thing he produced.

The money, in those days, was practically no more than a sort of equivalent for the specific article produced. People clung to their specific productions; it was in those days by no means a matter of indifference, what one produced; one grew together with one's specific article of output. By to-day it has already become somewhat fabulous, when one meets with an incident like the following, which I tell as an example: It happened that I was staying in Budapest, and wanted to get my hair cut; and there I discovered a hair-dresser, who still cut hair really with enthusiasm, and declared: ‘My aim is not to make money; my aim is a really handsome cut of hair!’ And he said it in such a tone, as really to give one the impression of inward truth and sincerity.

This close association, between the man and the things he puts out, is totally disappearing: all that is aimed at now, is to bring in a sufficient income to satisfy personal needs. And it comes then to be a question of Capital and Wages, and how much these will bring in. Just like abstract principles, which can be extended to cover every sort of thing, so this abstractified money extends over every conceivable thing. It is after all—in the minds of many people to-day—a matter of complete indifference, when the object is to earn a certain number of shillings a day, it is a matter of complete indifference, whether one does so by manufacturing shoes, or by manufacturing text-books.

Money is the actual Real Abstraction, just as general principles are abstract; and, like them, it can be applied to every sort of thing. And this abstract money, emancipated from the real reality of life, has made the kind of atmosphere possible, in which transactions can then go on such as went on in 1907; and yet these transactions, nevertheless, proceed absolutely and entirely from the will of human beings.

Reference extracts

1919-02-11-GA193

on economic life and brotherhood

Economic life draws us into a particular relation with the world. You will readily understand what this relation is if you compel yourselves to imagine that it were possible for us to be entirely absorbed in economic life. If that could happen, what should we be like? We should be thinking animals, nothing else. We are not thinking animals for the reason that besides economic life we have a life of rights — a political life — and a knowledge of the spirit, an earthly spiritual life. Through economic life we are thus plunged, more or less, into the midst of human relationships. And because of this interests are kindled — precisely in this field of human relations we are able to develop interests which in the true sense of the word are fraternal. In no other realm than that of economic life are fraternal relationships so easily and obviously developed among human beings.

In the spiritual life … what is the ruling impulse in earthly spiritual life? Fundamentally, it is personal interest — an interest arising out of the soul-nature, certainly, but none the less egoistic. Of religion, people demand that it shall make them holy. Of education, that is shall develop their talents. Of any kind of artistic representation, that it shall bring pleasure into their lives, and perhaps also stimulate their inner energies. As a general rule, it is egoism, whether of a grosser or more refined sort, which leads a person — quite understandably — to seek in spiritual life whatever satisfies himself.

In the political life of rights, on the other hand, we have to do with something which makes us all equal before the law. We are concerned with the relation of man to man. We have to ask, what our right should be. No question of rights exists among animals. In this respect, also, we are raised above the animals, even in our earthly affairs. But if we are connected with a religious community, or with a group of teachers, then — just as much as in civic relationships — we come up against personal claims, personal wishes. In the economic sphere, it is through the overcoming of self that something valuable, not derived from personal desires, comes to expression — brotherhood, responsibility for others, a way of living so that the other man gains experience through us.

In the spiritual life we receive according to our desires. In the sphere of rights we make a claim to something we need in order to make sure of a satisfactory human life as an equal among equals. And in the economic sphere is born that which unites men in terms of feeling: that is, brotherhood. The more this brotherhood is cultivated, the more fruitful economic life becomes. And the impulse towards brotherhood arises when we establish a certain connection between our property and another’s, between our need and another’s, between something we have and something another has, and so on.

This fraternity, this brotherly relation between men which must radiate through economic life if health is to prevail there, may be thought of as a kind of emanation rising from the economic sphere — and in such a way that if we absorb it into ourselves we are able to take it with us through the gate of death and carry it into the super-sensible life after death.

On earth, economic life looks like the lowest of the three social spheres, yet precisely from this sphere arises an impulse which works on into super-earthly realms after death. That is how the third member of the social organism presents itself in the light of spiritual science. Its character is such that in a certain sense it drives us into regions below the human level; yet in fact this is a blessing, since from the fraternity of economic life we carry through the gate of death something which remains with us when we enter the super-sensible world. Just as earthly spiritual life points backward, like a mirrored image, to super-sensible spiritual life before birth, so does economic life, with all that arises from its influence on men — social interests, feeling for human fellowship, brotherhood — so does economic life point forward to super-sensible life after death.

1920-09-15-GA335

How has it come about, that such a thing is possible? It has come about through the emancipation of the money-market from the goods-market. This emancipation dates from about the years 1810 to 1815. It was at this period first, that the earlier, purely economic conditions controlling public life, gave place to a control of public life by the money-market. It was the time when the bank-system first really became the dominant factor in economic life. And for economic situations to be created by transactions solely in the money-market, on the grand scale that was possible by 1907, was something which only came about through money having become what I might call an ‘actual abstraction,’ that spreads through our whole economic life and to all other life as well.

We go back in thought to the time, when a man was himself involved with the thing he produced.

The money, in those days, was practically no more than a sort of equivalent for the specific article produced. People clung to their specific productions; it was in those days by no means a matter of indifference, what one produced; one grew together with one's specific article of output. By to-day it has already become somewhat fabulous, when one meets with an incident like the following, which I tell as an example: It happened that I was staying in Budapest, and wanted to get my hair cut; and there I discovered a hair-dresser, who still cut hair really with enthusiasm, and declared: ‘My aim is not to make money; my aim is a really handsome cut of hair!’ And he said it in such a tone, as really to give one the impression of inward truth and sincerity.

This close association, between the man and the things he puts out, is totally disappearing: all that is aimed at now, is to bring in a sufficient income to satisfy personal needs. And it comes then to be a question of Capital and Wages, and how much these will bring in. Just like abstract principles, which can be extended to cover every sort of thing, so this abstractified money extends over every conceivable thing. It is after all—in the minds of many people to-day—a matter of complete indifference, when the object is to earn a certain number of shillings a day, it is a matter of complete indifference, whether one does so by manufacturing shoes, or by manufacturing text-books.

Money is the actual Real Abstraction, just as general principles are abstract; and, like them, it can be applied to every sort of thing. And this abstract money, emancipated from the real reality of life, has made the kind of atmosphere possible, in which transactions can then go on such as went on in 1907; and yet these transactions, nevertheless, proceed absolutely and entirely from the will of human beings.

...

Such a way of thinking should lead on in the end to practical undertakings; and this was really the idea which lay at the bottom of an undertaking like the "Kommender Tag". It is obviously not possible to put such an undertaking straight away upon a sound basis in respect to every concrete detail; but nevertheless, where an isolated undertaking of this kind is directed solely by people thoroughly imbued with the kind of education which comes from Spiritual Science, then all the practical measures that are taken will of themselves tend towards people not being burdened with unnecessary work, but only with necessary work;—it will have to consider the consumption side of the general economy; and then the kind of arrangements will naturally grow up, which can lead on in the end to economic recovery. To someone who is merely bent upon getting returns, it is a matter of indifference, what he is producing for and what he is paid for, so long as he gets his money; money is abstract in economic life, and for money he can get everything. But what is needed, is to bring our general economy into a form in which it shall depend in an honest way upon the human will,—not depend on it in a dishonest way.

How can it be brought to depend in an honest way upon the human will? By means of the Associations. When you have Associations, then all that takes place in economic life proceeds from the direct will of the people joined together in these Associations; the transactions that take place in economic life will then be transacted between the different Associations; then you will have transactions between live people, and what is produced will be the proceeds of this kind of transaction between live people, one with another, in the Associations. When it is a question of starting a factory, people will not consider it merely from the point of view of how much ‘returns’ it will yield under the existing conjuncture; but they will start from a collective insight into what is needed. It requires no government regulations: that would only tie the whole thing up in red tape—what it requires, is the practical knowledge of the people actually engaged in the various businesses and the various branches of business; and this gives the means of finding out whether a particular business-works is needed. If it is needed, then one may go on to production, and the people can make their earnings by it too. It will be done by way of the Associations; and in this way everything will become eliminated which might acquire an unhealthy influence. For then it will not be possible to trade in financial measures, as was done in the case of the Morgan-Combine; people will then work to meet economic needs. This results of itself, when it is a question of men, and not of money-balances.

...

As regards the present crisis, it is one which is more or less a final consequence. It cannot be examined by quite the same tests as other crises; and yet again it must be examined—not by theories, but by the actual facts. Consider, I beg of you, what has taken place in these last few years; How much has been produced by human labour power since 1914, in order that we might successfully bring it to the point, when from 10 to 12 million men have been shot dead in the course of 5 years, and three times that number disabled for life! How much labour-power has been expended upon this; and labour thereby withdrawn from life, which might have been employed very differently in life's service! I think one may not unjustly take the view, that what was there produced in order that men might be shot dead, was perhaps also unnecessary work, and work that might have been left undone. If one only thinks, what a long time was needed for deliberation, as late as 1912, when a million was required for educational purposes; and how very quickly the money was to hand, when a million was required for turning into powder! And then take what came after. Take this quintessence of abstraction; that money became an abstraction in the course of the 19th century; and now it has reached the perfection of abstraction: Look and see, how many paper-notes the stamp-press turns out every day. One can really only find use for it all, because the usage is artificially provided for! [Spoken during the time of the great inflation in Germany.] And behind it all, is the fact that we are living on the plunder of what is left over from the years 1911–18. That will come to an end at some time: Then the crisis will come!

The present crisis has been brought about by men's utter frivolity of mind, in thinking that one could employ people for years in manufacturing unnecessary things, and take them away from doing necessary work.

...

There is one more, and a very searching question, which has been put:

“What are the spiritual causes underlying the divorce of the money-market from the goods-market?"

We can only find the answer to a question like this, if we are clearly aware, that statements such as I made today must be taken in their exact sense, and not as being merely historical remarks, which are relatively exact so far. When one says, “through the emancipation of money a certain atmosphere was created,” one must look exactly at what this atmosphere is. In considering this abstractionising of the money-market,—where it is a matter of indifference, what the money stands for,—one must point out further, that this was necessary for the general progress of evolution. I have often pointed in this connection to the strong impulse which exists amongst the civilised peoples since the middle of the fifteenth century, to detach the individual from the group-spirit; how democracy has come more and more to be the general impulse of mankind; how the individual human being is tending more and more to become a factor of importance; and those things too are ever more gaining in importance, which proceed from a man's own soul. For this whole course of human evolution the abstractionising of economic life through money was a necessity; and we only require to recognise, that everything, which comes into being, will need after a certain time to be put straight,—or must be supplemented by something else which will counteract the mischief. For in actual life it is not possible to find anything which is absolutely good: everything in life is relative only. One can't say, if my boots are in holes to-day, that they are unconditionally bad; only, it is the fate of good boots to wear bad in course of time. It is inherent in the best system of economic life, that, when it has fulfilled certain functions, it should show signs of detriment. And so it is with the money-system too: it was not detrimental from the first. If one studies the historical circumstances of the time, in the middle of the 19th century, they very essentially contributed amongst other things to the rise of democratic conceptions. But then came the time, when this kind of abstraction reached its proper limit. I may rightly say ‘abstraction,’ for the function of money may in every way be compared to the soul's inner process in abstracting.

To be added

186-02

189-09

190-02

329-02

23-09

340-04

340-09

340-11

340-12

340-13

340-15

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